Talk:Raid Boss: Difference between revisions

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 :::::::::While 57+57+10+X may work if X has a lot of enemies, my goal in using it is to determine which missions have which raid bosses, so it absolutely fails to help me when I'm dealing with high AP cost X with less than twelve enemies (which is most everything but the evolve medals missions). There's also the plain annoyance of having to scroll from 350 to 57 to 10. It's simply less frustrating to just filter it so that only Blue, Complete, Without Cutscene missions show up, and do 57 again. For people grinding top-ranking Lux, the AP is more important, but for players like me, not having to deal with tedium is more important. Your goal in this seems to be finding the most efficient way to grind Lux, and that's not quite what I'm trying to figure out here.
 :::::::::That being said, I ''definitely'' think we need to scrub the "82" from the wiki -- everyone's results have conclusively demonstrated that it's not a global constant. I think we should replace it with "a certain number of", though, since the number of Heartless slain still factors in to the final trigger.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 06:59, 24 June 2016 (PDT)
+:::::::::::Yeah, to be clear, the ongoing tests are really two distinct projects: The first is to evaluate raid boss locations in the unmarked range (251-300) and regular:omega spawn frequencies (When a Prime Omega mission is found, it is validated by multiple users across different unions to ensure that there is no IV. At this point, that step is being dropped because multiple proofs have shown that there is definitely no IV.), and the second is to mix up every variable that we can control in order to determine raid kill counts, which gives us the results that you expressed below. They have shown that people using ''the same setup'', using yours as well as many others, get differing results. I think that we're on the same page, now. You just wanted to be sure that my tests were being managed in a way that provides universal results, and I have shown that I had put the necessary thought into them.
+:::::::::::I am not on Reddit and don't intend to be. As it is, my communications are too scattered already. I will, however, shortly post a request on GameFAQs, and I manage lots of info through the Facebook page, North America Kingdom Hearts Unchained χ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1077754335631502/). If you or anyone else wants to get on Reddit and refer people to me through either of those, you won't hear me object. I just can't realistically see myself signing up for yet another community just to use it once.
+:::::::::::Most missions have more than twelve enemies, so it's not like the 57-57-10-X method is too specific. I also listed missions within each of the eight (at the time) ranges that have many enemies, thus ensuring that the method always worked when people used those missions as X. Though, for regular Behemoth, the recommendation was just 5 instances of 10, since I, too, found that to be valid. To your assessment of my goal: Well, not exactly. My goal isn't specifically just for lux farming. That's just one of the perks of AP efficiency. If you save 3 AP per raid and do just seven raids in a day, that's 21 extra AP. That can be used for extra tries against the raid bosses that would get away, a special mission or two, story missions, what-have-you. It's more gameplay.
+:::::::::::For the tedium argument, let me show it this way:
+-57-57 (-4)-X: Spend 18 AP. In stead of killing all 84 enemies plus Pretenders, skip a group of four and all Pretenders, willingly sacrificing some foes-per-AP efficiency and potential Merlins. When you skip four, carefully navigate around them to get their treasure chest, because screw sacrificing that, too. If you screw up, either retry by S/L or face a regular Guard Armor and start over. Get tired of running the same mission over and over.
+-57-10-X: Spend 15 AP. Spend two seconds scrolling from 57 to 10. Blow through 10 in less time than 57. Kill Pretenders and eggs with impunity. Win.
+:::::::::::". . . a certain number of . . ." sounds great to me, too. I will take a hint from the FF wiki and put up an equation that shows our results, which is basically what you wrote below in paragraph form, to express how that certain number is determined.[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 14:00, 24 June 2016 (PDT)
 On another note, are we just ignoring Savage/Venomous Spider? Just pretending that it doesn't exist? :/ ''<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] ([[User talk:72.172.203.139|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|contribs]])</small>''
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 I've been getting 78, myself. -[[User:Rikki21|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#B452CD;font-size:4">'''Rikki'''</span>]][[User talk:Rikki21|<span style="color:#FF0066;font-size:4">'''21'''</span>]] 21:16, 22 June 2016 (PDT)
 :::::Something brought up on reddit -- doing Mission 10 five times (70 enemies) summons a raid boss, at least for me and presumably the person who relayed that. Doing 5* Evolve Medals: Speed three times (100 enemies) does not. In fact, you have to play that mission four times to get a raid boss. The mission appears to matter (at least if played repeatedly), which means testing this further will be almost impossible.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 06:52, 23 June 2016 (PDT)
-::::::Actually, if you're only considering that variable, it's totally impossible . . . because even that isn't a constant. To exemplify, I completed 57 thrice, omitting a few enemies to land on a desired kill count, recorded the results, and repeated. I got nothing at 80, but success at 81 and 82. However, when I first went to 270 (straight to boss, so one kill) and then did three runs of 57 with some restraint, I got a raid at 80. Then, again starting with 270 (just 1), I ran 221 enough to have 81 kills and got nothing. There was still nothing at 85 and finally a raid at 89. As I said a bit ago, I'll be finalizing my results soon, but as a little preview, I see the following: Eggs count double. The value appears to depend on both the starting mission (first one that you go to after a raid) and the end (last one before a new raid spawns). The value trends toward the 70-80 range.
+::::::Actually, if you're only considering that variable, it's totally impossible . . . because even that isn't a constant. To exemplify, I completed 57 thrice, omitting a few enemies to land on a desired kill count, recorded the results, and repeated. I got nothing at 80, but success at 81 and 82. However, when I first went to 270 (straight to boss, so one kill) and then did three runs of 57 with some restraint, I got a raid at 80. Then, again starting with 270 (just 1), I ran 221 enough to have 81 kills and got nothing. There was still nothing at 85 and finally a raid at 89. As I said a bit ago, I'll be finalizing my results soon, but as a little preview, I see the following: Eggs count double. The value appears to depend on both the starting mission (first one that you go to after a raid) and the end (last one before a new raid spawns). The value trends toward the 70-80 range.[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 14:00, 24 June 2016 (PDT)
 :::::::Yes, the order seems to matter. There's definitely an individual value, or my team running the same missions and killing the same enemies wouldn't have gotten Raid Bosses at different points. So, like you said, there seems to be several factors at play:
 *The first mission that you go to after your counter resets (sets the overall range)
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 :''Assuming'' that A is correct and that C is not necessary, then each quest would have a "raid value" in addition to a "raid boss" parameter -- but testing it would require doing that mission, then doing a mission where you can ensure that you kill only one enemy in that quest once you get close to the raid boss point, in order to narrow it down. I'm not confident on your claim about eggs, since I've gotten 82 both ''with'' 57-57-10-Keyblade Materials x times and by starting with 57 and not doing eggs or pretenders at all. If Eggs counted double, I'd definitely expect the Keyblade Materials missions to have taken much less runs than they did. This should be fairly simple to test for you, though -- run your preferred missions (57, 57, 10, X) both with and without killing Eggs, provided X is quantized so that you can pinpoint which enemy takes you over.
 [[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 06:48, 24 June 2016 (PDT)
+::::::::I, too, wondered whether or not running missions consecutively might interfere with the count. From what I've observed with various tests, no, but I intend to have one more test run to confirm. For the eggs, I'm a step ahead of you. It took a lot of giving up and reentering to do it, but I got a test of 80 (2 Prize Eggs) to fail, which means that they can't count double. I was sure that Growth Eggs did, though, due to getting a raid at just 39 kills from EXP Medals: Speed III. Then, the conclusions that I can draw are that either Growth Eggs count double, but Prize Eggs don't (and I've no idea on Munny Eggs), or the special missions, at least that one in particular, have a ridiculously beneficial raid value. I can't test further because I'm a free player, but if someone could run that special mission, then 57 three times, skipping enemies to land on 70 kills or so, and report back, that'd be as close to hard evidence as we're going to get.
+::::::::The really scary notion is that the algorithm for raid boss spawning could be exceedingly convoluted. There could be no "highs" and "lows" at all; it could be an untraceable matter of combinations having arbitrary values. I suppose that there's not much to say about that, though; we have to keep testing with hopes that our resultant equation is at least mostly accurate, or else it's all for naught.[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 14:00, 24 June 2016 (PDT)
+:::::::::I don't think eggs count double. When I tried to get a raid boss, I had 75 Heartless in evolve medal quests, and had to do 9 exp medal quests before I got a raid. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 14:20, 24 June 2016 (PDT)
+::::::::::Wow. Well, good enough for me. It's just that mission that has a great raid initiation value.[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 15:23, 24 June 2016 (PDT)
+Here is the link to the GameFAQs thread in which I am coordinating help on omega farming:
+http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/158980-kingdom-hearts-unchained-x/73932407
+== Gallery ==
+What's going on with the gallery here? Why are the images different scales?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 11:45, 30 June 2016 (PDT)
+:Dunno why it was messed up, fixed it though. -[[User:Rikki21|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#B452CD;font-size:4">'''Rikki'''</span>]][[User talk:Rikki21|<span style="color:#FF0066;font-size:4">'''21'''</span>]] 11:50, 30 June 2016 (PDT)
+==Prime Omegas==
+There is currently a campaign to test missions for Omega Raid frequencies, as it is clear that not all missions are made equal. Missions with exceptionally high rates are dubbed "Prime Omegas." When complete, the results will be uploaded here. To follow along and/or participate in the meantime, go to [http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/158980-kingdom-hearts-unchained-x/73932407]this GameFAQs thread.{{unsigned}}
+That's strange. I was sure that I put that on the main page, hence why I didn't sign it. By the by, I'm also the one that was first to report a 68 raid, and I've also gotten them at much, much lower values. Since you have infinite AP right now, just run to 270 and go straight to the boss over and over, as though you were farming Fantastia Mickeys, and you'll see that raid values have more variance than we initially gave them credit for. ". . . usually ranging from 68 to 78" would probably be the most accurate representation of the algorithm before I do the more comprehensive write-up.[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 19:27, 25 August 2016 (PDT)
+Okay, I don't know how to respond to editing comments directly, so I'll just say it here: What about that is self-promotion? I didn't mention that I'm the one running it. It's not a thing that anyone is glory-hogging or getting paid for. It's a community project . . . by, of, and for the community. I reached out to the community. I don't . . . That criticism is frankly just stupid. :/
+:It's self-promotion for the fanproject. This is not a wiki about the fanproject, it's a wiki about the game. You're free to advertise it on the talk page, or ask the community whether it's acceptable to advertise it in the sitenotice (they will probably say yes, as they did for advertising the wiki's in-game party), but the article is about the raid bosses, not the fan project.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 12:11, 26 August 2016 (PDT)
+Does you not see how contrived that is, though? The wiki is entirely one big fan project. The Raid Boss page and that GameFAQs thread have the same goal, and if you narrow down the latter to a nub, it's specifically ''to get info for this wiki page.'' It's not like this is some side project with just one common element; this is explicitly a project on ''this'' content. We should be on the same side, here. Now, I'll grant that I don't know this wiki's rules because every wiki is different and their rules are unwritten and largely imaginary, but I'd think that some cooperation would not be too much to ask for. If you want it in the sitenotice, not here, who am I supposed to ask? The last time that someone asked for permissions to edit something, they didn't need it because this is a wiki and they were just being lazy . . .[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 19:06, 26 August 2016 (PDT)
+:It's not contrived. The scope of the wiki is the game, not fan efforts about the game. If we included fan efforts, then we would include articles ''about'' the wiki itself, like "The Great Anon Immigration of 2016" or other navel-gazing.
+:I mean, ''maybe'' a see also link would be okay, but I've not seen any other publication-based wiki have a full section for "fans are investigating this article at this address". That's not what the community agreed to focus on, and that's not what we've done anywhere else. If you want to start a discussion on Talk:Main Page to see if the community is interested in widening the scope, be my guest.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 18:01, 27 August 2016 (PDT)
+No, all that I wanted was to reach out to the community to provide for itself. As always, a small collection of people are supplying all the information for everyone. It's not navel-gazing, it's not promotion, and it's not even asking for "recognition." It's a project that requires outsourcing to complete in any reasonable length of time, so I tried to outsource. You want it to take forever? Fine. It will. This isn't like other articles because it's not just some descriptors and maybe loot tables; it's an expansive, detailed undertaking. But hey, fine, if you can't get that, it's your wiki. Do with it as you please.[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 00:56, 28 August 2016 (PDT)
+::I think you're latching onto some other definition of what self-promotion means? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_for_things_made_up_one_day This] is a good example. I'm not saying that you're trying to "trick" anyone, I'm saying that what you're doing literally falls outside of the agreed scope of the project, and if you'd like it to be included in a substantial manner, it's on you to convince the community to widen the scope. I mean, readers may be interested in the events of KH2 as well, but that's outside the scope of the wiki so we don't report on it.[[Special:Contributions/204.11.142.106|204.11.142.106]] 10:23, 29 August 2016 (PDT)
+I don't understand how you fail to understand that raid boss mechanics are not irrelevant to the raid boss page. This is not some fanfiction, a meme that some kids came up with, or story speculation. It's research into the mechanics of ''this friggin' content''. I don't know what could be any plainer. Enough, anyway. If you can't bring yourself to cooperate, and you can't even fathom how a discussion that you initially took part in and should understand the validity thereof is valid, you have no business insulting my intellect. Just . . . bloody . . . drop it.[[Special:Contributions/72.172.203.139|72.172.203.139]] 02:49, 30 August 2016 (PDT)
+:I've outlined three times now the exact steps you need to take in order to ''get your info covered and advertised''. Stop trying to turn this into "help help, I'm being repressed" -- I've done everything but the actual legwork for you. "Raid boss mechanics" are not irrelevant to the raid boss page. If that's what you were posting, we wouldn't even have this discussion. You were instead posting a recruitment drive, which would be ''potentially'' allowable, but ''would require the community to agree on changing the previously defined scope of the wiki''. You're demanding something that the community has, before now, decided was something outside what they would cover on articles (though, as I've said before ''totally allows to be posted in the splash notice that appears on '''every single page'''''). If you want it covered, you need to respect that other editors actually ''have valid opinions'', and try to change their mind rather than consistently attacking their intellect or character. I have been consistently trying to outline a more productive path to you getting what you want, please actually read it with an open mind.[[Special:Contributions/204.11.142.106|204.11.142.106]] 06:26, 30 August 2016 (PDT)
+== Quests that always spawn a boss ==
+For filtering, all have cutscenes.  Proud mode quests are convenient for repeated summoning because the current proud quest doesn't change when a raid boss appears.
+* [[Quest 24]] (Magic): Standard [[Trickmaster]], Proud (Olympia, Speed medals) [[Behemoth]] -- Target can drop 2* [[Yuna]] or [[Pence]]
+* [[Quest 66]] (Power): Standard [[Behemoth]], Proud (MoG, 3+ hits) [[Guard Armor]]
+* [[Quest 102]] (Power): Standard [[Savage Spider]], Proud (DR, 2+ gauges) [[Trickmaster]]
+* [[Quest 183]] (Speed): Standard [[Savage Spider]], Proud (TT, 1 hit) [[Guard Armor]] -- Target can drop 2* [[Rikku]] or [[Paine]]
+* [[Quest 200]] (Magic): Standard [[Darkside]], Proud (Lion, 8200+ STR) [[Darkside]] -- Target can drop 2* [[Donald A]] or [[KH Sora A]]
+* [[Quest 230]] (Magic): Standard [[Trickmaster]], Proud (LL, 8+ hits) [[Trickmaster]]
+* [[Quest 660]] (Magic): Standard [[Guard Armor]], Proud takes 2 runs to spawn
+* [[Quest 715]] (Power): Standard [[Savage Spider]], Proud takes 3 runs to spawn